Post Reply 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 5 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
05-23-2013, 07:49 AM
Post: #21
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
(05-23-2013 07:13 AM)diamondsw Wrote:  
(05-22-2013 09:00 PM)mgriffin34 Wrote:  Well, this thread prompted me to look up the info on the Intel 525.

Correct me if my sleep-deprived math is wrong, but doesn't that come out to a measly ~20TB? Eek.

I get the same, and Intel SSDs have a good reputation. I had no idea how limited these products were.
To be fair, that probably wouldn't be so bad as a system drive, or data drive. As a cache device, maybe it burns up quickly.

I'm interested to see how Drobo responds to this. They're in a difficult position. I don't think they expected to burn up mSATA modules at anything like the rate that Zathrak saw. Maybe they'll decide that the consumer-grade products aren't "sturdy" enough, and they'll recommend industrial-grade flash. Maybe they'll adjust Drobo data tiering to be less aggressive. Maybe they'll replace the mSATA slot with a 2.5" SSD bay in future models.

You earn respect by how you live, not by what you demand.
-unknown
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
05-23-2013, 08:03 AM
Post: #22
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
Yup. It's pretty dismal for anything other than a home-use environment.

20TB for the 30/60GB models and 36TB for the 120GB+ models.

The biggest difference I could see between the specs of the Intel and Crucial is Intel puts an emphasis on the word 'minimum' useful life.

The spec sheet also claims 5,000 P/E cycles for the NAND. That will help extend the life significantly. As a comparison, the Samsung 840 and Crucial m4 has NAND rated at 3,000 P/E cycles.

It's also important to remember SSD's have the same failure rate as spinning platters. They aren't silver bullets.

i7 Mac Mini Server, 10.10
Drobo (Gen2), USB, 4x WD 4TB RED

Drobo (Gen3), USB3, 4X WD 4TB RED

Drobo 5D, TB, 5x WD 4TB RED, 120GB Intel 525 mSATA SSD
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
05-23-2013, 08:04 AM
Post: #23
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
Just as an aside, even in a conservative scenario where a user only drops 2TB drives in each bay, if that user is in to the hobbies that a Drobo typically appeals to in the prosumer realm (IE: video editing, photo editing, and general scratch drive usage), this kind of scratch usage will chew up these mSATA drives and spit them out in such a quick timeframe that it will almost make mSATA's impractical in many cases.

Zathrak

Drobo 5D | 64GB Crucial m4 SSD | 5 x 3TB Hitachi | Late 2012 iMac Intel Core i7 3.4Ghz, OS X Mountain Lion via Thunderbolt
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
05-23-2013, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 09:17 AM by Paul.)
Post: #24
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
btw whats the average write cycles/reusability of normal (spinning rust) hard drives?
according this this page, spinning hard drives dont really have a limit as such...

if so, then the problem seems to be with flash.... if all flash drives can only cope with a thousand or so re-use cycles, then what is the main benefit of people using them? are they worth a speed boost only to then ned replacing after they quickly burn out?

i see new computers coming with solidstate drives... are those only good for few cycles too?
i forgot to unclude the page Smile
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/2551...http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/255102-32-flash-drive-write-cycles-hard-drive-wr

(btw i have XP home SP2, a Drobo v1 with 2x 1TB/2x 1.5TB WD greens, & a bkp Drobo v2 with the same + a DroboShare: unused)
& a DroboS v2 with 3xWD15EADS &2x1TB in DDR mode on win7, & a drobo5D (all usb)
  • btw i did a sustained (write) operation for about 6 hours, and got 13.2MB / sec ...objection? "sustained" :)
    (16.7MB/s on a v2 & 47-96MB/s drobo-s)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
05-23-2013, 09:23 AM
Post: #25
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
(05-23-2013 08:03 AM)mgriffin34 Wrote:  It's also important to remember SSD's have the same failure rate as spinning platters. They aren't silver bullets.

That's true, but their wear characteristics differ.
Platters wear over their spinning life (power on hours), and are damaged by vibration. Simple data transfers have little effect on their life.
SSDs are almost the opposite: they're limited by total data transfers, and are almost immune to power on hours and to vibration.

Maybe Drobo owners should use flash modules with the highest total rated data life. For example, choose the Crucial 128GB module (72TB warranty life) instead of the 64MB module (36TB warranty life), and ignore the 256GB module (72TB life).

This reminds me a bit of steel vs. carbon brakes. Steel brakes are life-limited by heat. It prolongs their life to "pump" the brakes. Carbon brakes are life-limited by total applications. It prolongs their life to apply them continuously in fewer applications.
Both types are limited, but in different ways, and you need to understand these characteristics to use them effectively.

tl;dr Maybe flash isn't a simple drop-in replacement for spinning rust.

You earn respect by how you live, not by what you demand.
-unknown
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
05-23-2013, 10:42 AM
Post: #26
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
(05-23-2013 09:23 AM)rdo Wrote:  
(05-23-2013 08:03 AM)mgriffin34 Wrote:  It's also important to remember SSD's have the same failure rate as spinning platters. They aren't silver bullets.

That's true, but their wear characteristics differ.
Platters wear over their spinning life (power on hours), and are damaged by vibration. Simple data transfers have little effect on their life.
SSDs are almost the opposite: they're limited by total data transfers, and are almost immune to power on hours and to vibration.

Maybe Drobo owners should use flash modules with the highest total rated data life. For example, choose the Crucial 128GB module (72TB warranty life) instead of the 64MB module (36TB warranty life), and ignore the 256GB module (72TB life).

This reminds me a bit of steel vs. carbon brakes. Steel brakes are life-limited by heat. It prolongs their life to "pump" the brakes. Carbon brakes are life-limited by total applications. It prolongs their life to apply them continuously in fewer applications.
Both types are limited, but in different ways, and you need to understand these characteristics to use them effectively.


tl;dr Maybe flash isn't a simple drop-in replacement for spinning rust.

I think this is a fantastic analogy. Hope you don't mind if I steal it trying to describe SSDs to my gearhead friends.

What we need is a mSATA enterprise drive like the Intel S3700. That uses HET MLC and has a rated ability to write the entire drive 10x's per day for 5 years. (2TB/day for 5 years = thatsalot)

i7 Mac Mini Server, 10.10
Drobo (Gen2), USB, 4x WD 4TB RED

Drobo (Gen3), USB3, 4X WD 4TB RED

Drobo 5D, TB, 5x WD 4TB RED, 120GB Intel 525 mSATA SSD
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
05-23-2013, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 11:09 AM by Paul.)
Post: #27
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
3.6PT? Smile
3.6PB

(btw i have XP home SP2, a Drobo v1 with 2x 1TB/2x 1.5TB WD greens, & a bkp Drobo v2 with the same + a DroboShare: unused)
& a DroboS v2 with 3xWD15EADS &2x1TB in DDR mode on win7, & a drobo5D (all usb)
  • btw i did a sustained (write) operation for about 6 hours, and got 13.2MB / sec ...objection? "sustained" :)
    (16.7MB/s on a v2 & 47-96MB/s drobo-s)
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-11-2013, 08:28 AM
Post: #28
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
Fun fact, a new Crucial M4 was installed about a week ago in place of this failure. It has since dropped to 95% life. It's clear to me that an SSD isn't worth the cost of constantly replacing them for the month or two of their operation in my application.

Zathrak

Drobo 5D | 64GB Crucial m4 SSD | 5 x 3TB Hitachi | Late 2012 iMac Intel Core i7 3.4Ghz, OS X Mountain Lion via Thunderbolt
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-11-2013, 09:55 AM
Post: #29
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
Yikes. Sounds like it's really only useful for really static data with longish lifespan...
Makes sense for an OS, but you wouldn't/shouldn't put an OS on Drobo.

--Brandon | WHS2011+Drive Bender/2x Drobo v2/Drobo S G1/ Drobo S G2/Transporter
Drobo provides fault-tolerance, it's NOT a substitute for regular backups.
Drobo Best Practices - Official and Community-sourced.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
06-11-2013, 11:55 AM
Post: #30
RE: mSATA Life Failure w/ Dashboard 2.5.2 and Firmware 3.0.7
Thanks for the update, Zathrak.
I wondered if you just got a bad module or something, but it sounds more like something that Drobo causes.
That's frustrating.

You earn respect by how you live, not by what you demand.
-unknown
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump: